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Not So Polarized, After All

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Despite the partisan polarization that characterizes both politics and media at the moment, the public seems surprisingly united when it comes to defining Americanism.  A new Voter Study Group survey associated with George Washington University, showed a full 93% agreeing that “respect for American institutions and laws” is important for being an American. Meanwhile, 88% believe it’s important to “accept people of diverse racial and religious backgrounds” to claim authentic American identity. Only 20% think “European heritage” should be part of Americanism but a full 85%—even 75% of Democrats!—believe it is important to speak English and to embrace our common language.

All in all, the survey that interviewed 8,000 respondents showed a populace much less fractured, bigoted and resentful than often assumed. Nearly all of us understand that what makes us American isn’t where our ancestors came from, but the common ideals and shared culture that we uphold and advance.

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  1. Nani Tavares  •  Jul 19, 2017 at 10:21 pm

    This doesn't surprise me. Only 20% of the population benefited from Obamacare, yet the other 80% is expected to foot the bill. Lost are any concern for incredible hikes in premiums and ridiculous deductions. According to actual studies, about 5% of the population believe they are a gender that they were not biologically born as; yet the other 95% are pressured into joining in on their pretense. 63% of Americans are White but somehow giving preferential treatment to minorities based on the color of their skin makes America less racist.

    With the help of the media, academia, and Hollywood, words have had their definition changed. And many are shaking their heads because it makes no sense.

    Yep, the majority is White, Heterosexual, and Working Class. And they are tired of being told they are responsible for the minority.

    • Ty  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 6:30 pm

      If you polled Americans on specific issues and really drilled down to their true wants, it's true that I think there would be far more commonality than difference. But one thing has sprouted like a weed to a greater degree in modern times, ESPECIALLY on the conservative side and the talk radio crowd.

      Ideology is causing fissures to increase more than they would in the absence of such a thing.

      I recently heard a recitation of an essay by Vaclav Havel on the Glenn Show on bloggingheads tv, he was a Czech dissident and writer. For all I know he was a conservative and a general critic of totalitarianism, but there was an amazing snippet in the essay Glenn spoke up that I found had relevance today, going beyond the ideology he was targeting at the time.

      Vaclav Havel: "…It hides them behind the facade of something high. And that something is ideology.
      Ideology is a specious way of relating to the world. It offers human beings the illusion of an identity, of dignity, and of morality while making it easier for them to part with them. As the repository of something 'supra-personal' and objective, it enables people to deceive their conscience and conceal their true position and their inglorious modus vivendi, both from the world and from themselves…"

      That analysis of ideology is spot on to me, and I think it highlights so much of what has gone wrong with modern conservatism. I think too many of you have placed the ideology as the END POINT, the highest goal to achieve and work towards. It's not that an ideology is in service to some RESULT you deem a better result, oh no, the ideology IS the final result.

      To me, the only worth of an ideology is as a means to better understand positions and where they come from, and more importantly, the ideology has to be an effective way of thinking and model to achieve the results we are after. IF the tenants of the ideology no longer perform like we want them to, and perhaps make predictions that are no longer producing positive results, then to ME, that is a good time to reevaluate the ideology to see if it is still worth something. But talk radio conservatives? Too many SEEM to take the following stance. There CAN'T be anything wrong with the underlying ideology, the ideology is PERFECT, edge into stone on Mount Sinai, or may as well have been. Constant perfection throughout all time and space, if the results are less than ideal from following an ideology, then the problem must be the results or the people are not holding close ENOUGH to the ideology.

      That is my take on conservatives on healthcare. The ideology talks of greater freedom of choice, of markets being the ideal solution to all spheres of goods and services in an economy, no exceptions. I try to peer inside with previous questions like asking what the "market value of a human life is?" to try to break through the ideological bubble, try to get people to question whether holding to that ideology will lead to better results that people OUGHT to place as a higher priority, but they can't. The ideology comes first. They are slaves to it, willing supplicants to whatever answers that fel computer spits out.

      I want them to be free, to look inside and ask themselves what they want out of government policy and life, for themselves and others. And to IMAGINE that it MIGHT be possible that the ideology they have chained themselves to and called their Master MIGHT not have the best answers in all cases.

      Such a small thing to wonder to any reasonable person, but I know how deep the rot has spread.

  2. Jim Bird  •  Jul 19, 2017 at 11:14 pm

    Of course we're not fractured, bigoted and resentful! The DC Left is. They preach their filth, hatred and lies daily to (as Limbaugh says) people with heads full of mush. And nary a word of protest from the Republican leadership. Trump is not a liar, thug or coward and therefore not a Republican. He looks at situations the way normal people do and then acts until the problem is solved and he never gives up. He meets the needs of others the way human beings do. The government, especially the entrenched Feds do exactly the opposite. They enjoy destroying everything but themselves, always blaming someone else for their atrocities. But not Trump. He's his own man and loves our country unlike the Beltway bastards. Go ahead GOP, destroy the best healthcare in the history of the world by doing nothing for 8 f___ing years while we worked our asses off giving you full majorities everywhere!!!
    What do we have to show it – WWIII, Obamacare, I need no go on trying to explain the obvious, you lieing sniveling cowards. I'm glad the GOP is irrelevant now – could I interest you in bribes, yes/no? You see, I have 6 grandsons who need "conscientious objector" deferments so they won't get drafted and killed in the war you guys have created. I need you best price; let's make a deal!

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 1:49 pm

      Jim Bird, I've made no bones about being a stickler for fairness and I am losing it with the hypocrisy of holding Trump to a different standard than not just Hillary but Obama. Every infraction of the latter was met with a shrug and a wink, a "that's how things run" but EVERY word, EVERY gesture of Trump And family is scrutinized for possible criminal behavior! Have they interviewed anyone who might have had contact at that infamous meeting; the waiter, the maid, the car attendant? Anyone of them could have a tie with a Russian!!! Pah lez! It's just plain bullying. The good thing is that I don't think I'm alone in my disgust.

      • Jim Bird  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 11:53 pm

        You're not alone Nani. Real people, the so-called little guys and gals are jumping on his bandwagon in droves I think, even the ones who didn't vote for him. I certainly hope so. It's good to be in agreement again with you too Nani. Regards,

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 2:40 am

        Jim Bird. You know that I disliked Trump so much that I literally was in a bad mood for weeks after his election. I disliked him because I hate bullies…boy the Liberals showed me what being a bully means huh? I thought his being able to appoint justices to the SCOTUS would have no import because I didn't see Abortion and Same Sex Marriage changing anytime soon. Again, I learned that there weren't just "rights" that SCOTUS could "find" but those they could take away. When Trump allowed the generals to take care of Syria, I remembered how "safe" I felt with 8 years of Obama's apology tour and realized that Hillary would have been another 4.

        I fight for Trump because like it or not, he is the only one able and willing to fight for us. I still don't like the man but I will take his crude and thoughtless banter to Obama's slick bull any day. Oh ok, I'll be honest, I actually like when he tells the Liberals, the media, Hollywood, and academia off. He says the things most of us want to say. Sigh, yeah, I'm not always nice 🙂

  3. Rizzo  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 10:29 am

    Morons on the left NEVER acknowledge that the US is the GREATEST, most CONSEQUENTIAL nation in the history of the world… and they NEVER EVER do a serious examination of why that is.
    I have never understood why these leftists want to always compare the US to these other insignificant countries and then try to mimick their mediocrity.
    It is EXACTLY OPPOSITE of how it should be. They cherry-pick some meaningless statistic, then want to use it as evidence as to why the US should become more like socialist-Europe. Meanwhile, more people migrate and want to migrate to the US than anywhere else in the world.
    All the great leaders in US history have known that the destruction of the US will come from within… and we are seeing it now more than ever.

    • Jim Bird  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 11:03 am

      Perfectly stated Rizzo! Senator Rizzo sounds great too, please let me donate to your campaign!

    • Ty  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 5:27 pm

      Greatest and most consequential nation? Probably, definitely in modern times. The rest of the world has plenty of examples from the US to emulate.

      But here is where that logic and attitude breaks down. We are not the BEST and GREATEST and have the most IDEAL solution to problems in literally EVERY Sphere of policy and life. THAT, is a conservative conceit, an ARROGANCE of perfection that needs to be slapped out of the conservative zeitgeist.

      Even the founders did not have the attitude of the judeo christian tradition being the IDEAL model in ALL things. They took ideas from a bunch of PAGANS in the greeks and romans of representative government and expanded on it. That was NOT a model seeking to emulate the biblical model of the wise king Solomon. And the nation was BETTER for that picking and choosing the best of what was out in the world and history, and mixing some new ideas.

      And the GREATEST conceit of all? Throughout ALL TIME AND SPACE, NO country or people for HUDNREDS of years now has EVER come up with a good idea that was an improvement that we could learn from.

      That kind of acknowledgment does not take away from our accomplishments… unless you are the kind of insecure, small conservative mind that want to beat your chest and think WE ARE THE GREATEST !!!!! We ALWAYS have the BEST IDEAS, BEST policies, ALL TIME TIME !!!!!!!!

      No, you arrogant little piss ant, you do not. That was the larger point of that Michael Moore Movie Medved HATED called "Where to Invade Next"

      Now I would expect most conservatives to hate that movie since it was a cavalcade of more liberal leaning policies around the world, but the core idea is sound, sometimes, other peoples and nations have tried something out that works well that even WE can learn from.

      • Jim Bird  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 6:40 pm

        Your are wrong on so many different infantile levels. Liberals have cornered the market on conceit and arrogance as well as corruption, collusion and criminality with Obama being the shining example.

      • Ty  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 7:43 pm

        You might have been able to get away with that lie if I had not been a listener of talk radio for over 15 years now. The near omniscient/god like certainty with which conservative hosts and callers alike mouth on a weekly basis tells me all I need to know about the incalculable conceit they have about their own knowledge, and policies.

        Liberals can be dogmatic too, but the north star is still supposed to be actual results. Take this LIBERAL news outlets treatment of that story coming out of Seattle regarding the potential negative issues linked to the minimum wage increase.

        https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/27/15879346/study-high-minimum-wage-job-killer-seattle

        That was not a story that was buried, it was openly discussed and will continue to be looked at as more data comes in. But if the data keeps coming in that lower wage earners are HURT by higher minimum wages beyond a certain point, I am absolutely certain most liberals will go back to the drawing board to find a different way to help people do better.

        How many conservatives are going to DROP the dogma about lowering taxes on business will inevitably UNLEASH THE BEAST of 3-4% growth? It FAILED in Kansas, that was a conservative experiment where the CONSERVATIVE legislature had to mutiny against Brownback because that policy KEPT blowing a hole in the budget and failed to produce the expected growth. I have not heard this issue discussed on a SINGLE conservative talk show, it's been completely ignored. Why? Are they afraid to confront bad results from THEIR dogma?

        And spare me this talk of corruption via Obama, the guy was a relative saint compared to Trump. Obama was one of the most straight laced and traditional family oriented presidents we've had since Bush. Trump is the bigger break with that tradition, not Obama.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 8:11 pm

        Ty, so that is why Liberals are constantly trying to change America; they don't think its the greatest nation ever. They look not at what we have accomplished, the world our soldiers has fought and died to save, the innovations that has allowed communication between cultures, the moral clarity that has set standards of human decency, the idea that freedom and opportunity are human rights promised to all not by man-made governments but by our maker.

        They do not see how extraordinary this country is. They see only the sins of humanity and somehow blame it all on the only nation that has made a serious effort toward rectifying them. It may be pride and a lack of humility to think we are the greatest for we certainly have much to be proud of. But in your desire to humble America, you show the most shameful of sins: lack of gratitude.

        I was amused by your frustration and anger. Now I feel pity. To have, by accident of birth, been given so much and be so ungrateful, how utterly sad.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 20, 2017 at 8:30 pm

        Ty… You are such a moron. You mischaracterize everything and fight with every imaginary Strawman possible. Nobody said America and the American way of life is "perfect", it just so happens to be the best way ever devised.

      • Ty  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 12:26 am

        You can keep your pity, but I will accept your thanks, on behalf of all Liberals. For we are the engines of progress across time in this nation and others.

        We are the ones that push for change to make things better, it's the conservatives that want to stay in place where we are, or just go slowly.

        I know none of you can allow yourselves to thank me publicly, so I will preemptively accept your thanks. Nani. You… are welcome. You are welcome for being able to bask in the warm glow of ingenuity and progress the liberals have provided.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 2:22 am

        Ty, it must really be scary for you. First your guilt card doesn't work. Then you pull the "change" number as if all change is good. Hasn't anyone ever explained to you that change that comes about after destruction is change that has nothing but ashes to build on? You take credit for changes YOU like without acknowledging that it is America's very foundation that allows that change. And when the majority isn't buying it, you curl into your fantasy world where we would actually THANK you for being ungrateful and wanting to tear down the very nation that gives you so much.

        But you HAVE come to a conservative site, expecting what exactly? So perhaps the delusion has been there for a long time.

  4. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 9:18 am

    Ty
    Based on the fact that all-cause mortality rates have substantially increased, by more than 20,000 deaths per year, since the passage of Obamacare… Are you ready and willing to drop your dogma?

    The change you represent is dangerous. It is counter to everything that has made America the greatest nation in the history of the world… And it is precisely why we seek to defeat you and your ilk.

  5. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 9:23 am

    And by the way moron… The story in Seattle was predictable. You morons act like what you try is new and novel. There are reasons why we conservatives oppose you leftists, mostly because everything you propose has been tried and failed. The laws of economics are as sure and as predictable a as the laws of science.
    Dealing with leftists is like dealing with children.

  6. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 10:42 am

    Ty – Why do we look both ways before crossing the street?
    Conservative – Beacuse it allows you to cross the street more safely.
    Ty – Yeah, but people still die crossing the street. You conservatives are old, and your ideas are old. You need to let go of your "looking both ways before crossing the street" dogma.
    Conservative – Our way is not perfect, but by using facts, logic, reason, and historical context, it has proven to be the best way ever devised to safely cross the street.
    Ty – You're old. I am new. I represent change. Change is always good. I propose government imposing a new law requiring all people to cross the street with their eyes closed. It makes everyone equal, plus it's a new and novel approach.
    Conservative – Our way works.
    Ty – Your way is old… and new is always better. Plus, our way helps level the road-crossing playing field with the blind. Now, nobody is discriminated against because of their inability to see.
    Aren't we leftists so progressive and forward thinking? We are so smart!

    Fast-forward 10 years…
    Ty – Oh my Atheist-God, more people are dying crossing the street now. What happened? We leftists will look into this, because NOBODY could have ever predicted this result.

    • Ty  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 2:46 pm

      Rizzo. This is very important. I need you to listen closely, I do not expect you to grasp what I am saying, or believe what I am saying, but I really want you to TRY to lower your conservative defense mode for a brief moment and take this in.

      There is nothing useful about change for its own sake. I consider myself a liberal. If someone came across my path and starting arguing that we should change policy X or Y, and I thought those policies were working well, I would NOT be in favor of change. If someone advocated for open borders, I would be against that because that is not something I would consider a positive change just opening up the flood gates to the poor of the world to come to our doorstep. I am willing to tolerate a bit more slippage than most conservatives on the southern border, but that is NOT a desire to see open borders.

      The difference between my kind of liberalism and much of the conservative attitude I encounter on talk radio is that I am more accepting of changing and altering course than conservatives are IF I think the current policy or situation is not a good place or I have an idea of how we could get to a better place.

      Yes, this mud hut provides shelter, yes we could still keep building the mid hut and do the same thing our ancestors did, follow tradition… but if there was a new way to build shelter that was even better than the mud hut… I, as a LIBERAL, want to at least TRY that out !

      That is the core difference in attitude between liberals and conservatives in my view. Now imagine we are talking about issues where we do not KNOW whether some new way of doing things will be clearly better like a log cabin vs a mud hut. It's less clear there will be a benefit by trying something new, a more… CONSERVATIVE attitude would rest on our current laurels, stick with what works. But what if another way worked better? I see ZERO intrinsic value to tradition for traditions sake, unless that tradition adds some sort of social glue that makes things better. But if it is constraining the ability of myself and others to try something new that might be better, I have little time for it. THAT is progress.

      Here is another VERY important point. Again, I need you to TRY to listen closely, knowing full well it will pass right over your head. MOST new ideas are probably terrible! And that implies what to you Rizzo? That we ought not try them? Because the metal wrench works that this new electric wrench is not worth bothering with? I have a greater willingness to ACCEPT a failure rate with new ideas, and if they don't work or make things better, we can toss them out, but sticking to tradition, sticking to the status quo is NOT something I see as a VIRTUE.

      I see it as chains. The chains might be better than what we had hundreds of years ago, but if I see examples around the world and alternative healthcare models that allow lower costs and covering more people and fewer medical bankruptcies, it makes me want to try those ideas out HERE.

      Not to the conservative. Status quo, tradition, no change, or change so slow none of us sees it. This is why I try to get through your THICK conservative skulls that LIBERALS are the greatest gift to human civilization mankind has ever known. We are the ones that are more likely to leap off into the abyss, often to our deaths, but that process drives civilization forward faster than a conservative attitude EVER could.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 3:14 pm

        You got ONE thing correct, you leftists are far more likely to jump to your deaths. PLEASE STOP your push for government to force the rest of us to follow you in your suicide pact.
        BTW, your examples are preposterous. Freedom is what has allowed for the US to move from mud-huts to cabins, to luxury high-rises. It's our tradition of freedom, and our Constitution that LIMITS GOVERNMENT, NOT US, that has made the U.S. The Greatest Country in the history of the world.
        You leftists also have traditions… It usually involves destroying our Constitution, stealing money and eliminating individual freedom

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 3:33 pm

        So Ty, you support the repeal of Obamacare? 20,000 more people die per year than before its passage. Is that failure enough for you, or are you going to cling to your dogma?
        Are you going to require 20,000 to jump to their death with the rest of you leftist morons?

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 pm

        Leftist's Dogma
        Obamacare is great!
        Obamacare means more people are insured.
        More people insured means more access to healthcare.
        More access to healthcare means better outcomes.
        Better outcomes means decreases in healthcare costs.

        REALITY
        Obamacare sucks.
        More healthcare insurance is no guarantee of more healthcare.
        Healthcare costs are SOARING!
        More people die annually after the passage of Obamacare.
        Outcomes are AWFUL.

        Leftist's Dogma
        Just steal and spend more money!

      • Ty  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 11:46 pm

        Oh? Health Insurance does not lead to better health outcomes? I see, then act on that belief Rizzo, send a receipt of your cancelled insurance. I'll be waiting. Or perhaps you'll have a dodge (like a true coward) that it might help protect against a medical bankruptcy. If insurance has these negative health effects, what exactly is the point of insurance Rizzo?

        You want a single payer system instead? Are you finally coming on board?

        On the deaths, let's assume that mortality rates have increased. Now, a dishonest man or a stupid man would find the only plausible conclusion from that reality that obamacare caused the extra deaths. An intelligent person would have more options on the table. What was the mortality rate from opiods before obamacare hit? If it was lower, then perhaps a higher mortality rate from that epidemic that has nothing to do with obamacare specifically contributed to higher mortality rates.

        The proper question to ask, is how many deaths would have happened over the same period without obamacare. To get that answer we'd need a time machine to be absolutely certain, though lack of ACTUAL certainty has NEVER stopped your type of conservative mind from filling in the gaps with whatever interpretation is most convenient to you. And that is why I consider you such a broken thinker and person, a man made worse by living in the talk radio echo chamber. Though I can't blame it all on that, some of that is just you.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 9:50 am

        Ty…
        I'm trying to relate to you, using the same logic as you leftist liberals. You morons constantly use statistics that show a correlation and talk it about as causation.
        You claim that Europe spends less money than the US on healthcare as a way to champion their healthcare system as being better than ours. Do you suppose there are other factors you are leaving out?
        You morons also talk about life-expectancy as if there is some direct causal relationship between how long someone lives and a healthcare system. Is it possible that you could conceive that maybe other factors influence how long someone lives?… Doubtful.
        You leftists have a one-track mind, fully equipped with blinders… You have fully insulated yourselves from facts, logic, and wisdom.
        Lastly, just so you know… It was predictable that you would bring up opioid-related deaths. It's a convenient way you leftists further insulate yourselves from reality… An additional analysis was done, adjusting for opioid-related deaths, actually removing all deaths that were not related to an illness (they were removed from the stats), and guess what Ty….. wait for it…. keep waiting…. 11,000 more people have died annually than before the implementation of Obamacare.
        Ready to ditch your FAILED PLAN? Ready to go back to what worked better? Ready to accept that you live in America, and we Americans value FREEDOM and we despise those who try to impose European-Style socialism on us.

      • Ty  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 4:43 pm

        I should also point out, better access to healthcare does not lower mortality, that stat is 100%. The point of better access to healthcare is so that more people can delay mortality.

        That is what Michaels father got, that is what we want for more people. And liberals are less satisfied with the notion that some do not have the same sort of access to delaying death because of a lack of ability to pay for care.

        Nothing you have said suggests you give a damn about that, or more importantly, would trade more of that for any of your sacred cows of more pure market based care.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 6:23 pm

        Moron… We have no pure markets. None of us have EVER had pure markets.
        If you are so interested in better outcomes, and novel approaches, WHY DON'T YOU EVER SUPPORT SOMETHING THAT INVOLVES LESS GOVERNMENT AND MORE INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM? NEVER! You just want to mimick backward-ass Europe socialism.
        I have shown you that more people die with your sacred cow called Obamacare than before, and yet you support it.
        You are a FRAUD!
        BTW…. I don't want the status quo. You liberals OWN the current, inferior status quo. I want something new. I want freedom.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 6:53 pm

        Did the 11,000 additional deaths under Obamacare delay mortality?
        I thought Obamacare created greater access?
        What happened?
        Another predictable failure of the left… That's what happened.
        We are now less free, more people die, and the leftists will demand that the solution is MORE GOVERNMENT AND LESS FREEDOM.
        How many more failures? How many more have to die? How much more freedom do we have to surrender in this leftist experiment?
        When do reach Utopia?

      • Ty  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 8:54 pm

        Rizzo, give me the number of deaths over that period without Obama care. And how many of those additional deaths were BECAUSE of Obama care?

        Even if we had a universal healthcare model, I'd still expect more of us to die compared to the Japanese in terms of life expectancy, in large part due to diet differences. Has the US population gotten thinner and healthier since Obama care due to diet or fatter and less healthy?

        You have not even begun to TRY to tease these and other things out, but the reality was never the point, it was a stat, any stat, that would shore up your own views and undermine your opposing view.

        When will you grow up I wonder? Whatever the answer, I don't intend to wait for your kind to get it.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 9:37 pm

        Ty…
        So, on what basis are you destroying freedom?
        Aren't you the moron who said we should be more like Europe, because Europe spends less, and Europe has .00075 years longer life expectancy than the US?
        I told you MONTHS AGO, this is NOT an apples to apples comparison… yet, you continued to promote European style medical socialism.
        Now, that you have ZERO proof that Obamacare is superior to our old, free-market system… and evidence that it is indeed MUCH WORSE, you want to talk about all the different complexities that can affect health outcomes.
        You are a total ass-clown!
        So again, if Obamacre is DEMONSTRABLY MORE EXPENSIVE, and MORE PEOPLE ARE DYING RELATIVE TO PRE-OBAMACARE… On what basis are you destroying our SUPERIOR, AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE?
        Your experiment has FAILED. You have jumped to your death, like all moronic leftists.
        Now, let the adults resume control. Let America be America AGAIN!
        Let the lesser among us, mimick us. We are the GREATEST NATION TO HAVE EVER GRACED THIS EARTH.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 23, 2017 at 9:21 am

        Oh, I get it now… stats, correlations promoted as causal relationships, and false-comparisons are only acceptable when it furthers the leftist's dogma.
        It's the old heads I win, tails you lose.
        It's also dishonest, and proof that the left will do and say anything to promote socialism and freedom-destroying, top-down, centralized, all-powerful, federal government.
        Pathetic!

      • Ty  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 1:25 am

        You think you understand the causal links, but you don't Rizzo, and frankly no one on this comment section has done enough reading of source material to adjudicate the cause of additional mortality rates after the obamacare years. It's true that many people on the left claim that the loss of obamacare will lead to more deaths, the presumption being that better access to healthcare and insurance to pay for needed care will save more lives than the absence of such a thing.

        Now you point to some greater mortality rates after obamacare, then proceed to make a different claim, the increased mortality rates were CAUSED by obamacare. I can imagine how increased coverage might protect people, but it's harder for me to imagine how it would directly harm more people than it helped.

        Medicare expansion was the bulk of the coverage, but is the non medicare expansion through the exchanges smaller than the people that lost coverage due to their premiums going to high to pay for out of pocket? If so, that could be a plausible explanation, and if so, then that would be an argument to scuttle the entire healthcare insurance model we have and go to single payer. So many questions and unknowns, and claims. But know this Rizzo, I do not trust anything you say. You are not the only one who discounts information coming from opposing ideological sources. I do not know how credible the increased mortality rate stats are, and it's certainly not clear that was a direct consequence of obamacare. If you think this is convenient on my part, you're right. You have a vested interest in having any and all policies that involve the government being shown to be trash and inherently destructive, your entire outlook on life and society poisons the well. Mine has always been more balanced, I am perfectly fine with other markets operating in something closer to a free market, but I am not as radical as you, I do not share the anti government baggage you do. And so I cannot as easily jump to the same conclusions you do, at least not until I find more neutral analysis of the claims and the causal relationships. But if those turn up, then I am perfectly open to changing my mind. Same on the minimum wage. Are you Rizzo?

  7. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 11:30 am

    Oh yeah, and lastly, talking about the failures of Seattle's minimum wage law on VOX, is the equivalent of yelling that news through a megaphone on a deserted island. I have noticed the leftists "mainstream" media isn't talking about it. Perhaps, if they could tie it to Trump and Russian collusion, then it might be news-worthy.

    • Ty  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 2:31 pm

      If one of your pet projects that you put your hopes into shows signs of failure, people often want to be REALLY sure before they accept defeat and move on. Same thing happened with the tax cuts to business in Kansas and it blowing a hole in the budget and not producing the growth Stephen Moore types expected. They did not change course initially, they gave it years and reelected Brownback because of their precious conservative ideology and IDENTITY needed to be protected and preserved. But eventually, the butchers bill comes due, repeated failure tends to change the minds of the majority… unless they are true ideologues.

      If the result holds in Seattle, and is repeated elsewhere, trust me, the minimum wage movement will falter and go into decline. But remember, I keep telling you, the north star of liberal concern is NOT the minimum wage, it's making sure that more people can rise higher, ESPECIALLY if they are working full time. And if the economy is not producing enough jobs for outlets for people that don't have college degrees, and companies are not stepping up with some sort of training or apprenticeship programs, then we will continue to experiment. Personally, more than minimum wage I want to test a universal basic income more. But if that too failed, I'd scrap that too.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 3:28 pm

        You live in this contemporary bubble. You act like your dumb-ass gimmicks haven't been tried and failed before. Universal income is NOT new. Arbitrarily demanding that we pay a burger-flipper $50 an hour is not new.
        And, if you would like to discuss the "failure" of Kansas tax-cuts, let's go.
        Tax-cuts don't work when you continue to spend like a liberal on crack.
        And why is it a failure? Because it created debt? You leftists LOVE DEBT!

  8. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    "We are the engines of progress"
    Ty – I know how to eliminate ALL CRIME!
    We will just make EVERYTHING LEGAL.
    Problem SOLVED!
    We leftists are so smart and novel!

  9. Rizzo  •  Jul 21, 2017 at 7:11 pm

    Ty – If not for government control, leading us down the path to Utopia, we would all still be living in mud huts.
    I love you government. Is there anything you can't do?

  10. Rizzo  •  Jul 22, 2017 at 10:41 am

    Conservative…. Go ahead, live in a mud-hut, a cabin, whatever you want!

    Leftist… Europeans live in tents. Tents are cheaper, and therefore better. I propose that government makes EVERYONE IN AMERICA BUY A TENT AND LIVE IN IT.

  11. Nani Tavares  •  Jul 23, 2017 at 3:01 pm

    This thread has been a real eye opener. Like Rizzo and Jim, I've been trying for years to understand the logic behind Liberals view point. For decades they've redefined words and concepts that has most of us screaming inside. For example, we know that there can be no racial equality if one race gets preferential treatment based on the color of their skin. Same with gender equality. To say that one part NEEDS extra help means that the one part is NOT equal to the other. We are told that one of the most important rights we possess is freedom of speech but penalized if we say what our "betters" deem inappropriate words. "Hate speech" laws flies at the very heart of free speech. The American dream IS to succeed but we are told that dream is selfish and anyone attaining that dream is not paying their fair share. And on and on it goes.

    It makes no sense unless one gets two very important things about Liberal thinking: the money an individual makes belongs to the collective whole to be spent by those elites who know better how to spend it and all this government "equality" cannot be achieved unless the government controls everything.

    In other words, Liberals aren't offering a better America. They are offering a brand of communism where any attempt to exercise one's individual freedom must be destroyed. This is why the idea of America being great is an anathema. They began by placing upon the shoulders of America, especially the military, the sins of humanity. In fact, the very thought that America's fighting force is superior is horrific to them for it presents a real threat to control and domination. Then they redefined the meaning of words. They used "tolerance", "equality", and above all "fairness" to bully decent Americans into acceptance of their view point. The latest in this propaganda is the call for the rich to pay their fair share; tell me what is so FAIR about stealing from one person to give to someone else? This kind of thief isn't even allowed in the Bible. But it is allowed if one accepts the belief that the money doesn't belong to the rich. Then it is the successful person who is taking more of the collective pot than is his "fair share".

    But I think, FINALLY, the Left has pushed things too far. It's as though people are starting to wake up from a bad dream. People are starting to ask really logical questions: Why am I responsible for the poor? Why do I have to be involved in someone else pretense of what gender they think they are? Why does the 80% have to have their premiums tripled to pay for the 20% who don't pay anything? Why should we trust our health care to a government that can't even provide decent health care to their vets? Why can't I be proud of my country, stand to the rising of the flag, listen to my own conscience, voice my own opinions?

    We must continue to challenge the Left's indoctrination for it is no longer an argument between two opposing view points. They want to destroy this nation. We must encourage others to stand up and defend the values of an America of free individuals. Most of all, we must teach our children that we have a nation to be proud of.

    • Ty  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 1:40 am

      Why are you responsible for x and y and z? Well, you are not, personally, but we all have responsibilities to pay taxes to tackle the burdens society and representatives have voted on. Why? I'll let Barbara Rank handle this.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/15/a-congressman-said-making-a-man-get-maternity-insurance-was-crazy-a-womans-reply-went-viral/

      • Ty  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 1:44 am

        Oh, and if you are wondering who decides what that greater good is? We do as a society and voters. And that often means that the center of mass of the wishes of society do not align with your preferences Nani. Part of being an adult is not throwing tantrums that you do not have everything break your way, and if it's TOO tyrannical, you are free to leave. I don't expect much action though, you and Rizzo are all talk. You squeal a hundred times louder than reality about how oppressed those big bad liberals are towards you. An assault on the memory of millions of people that have experiences true oppression.

      • Ty  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 1:47 am

        And lest I forget, tick tock Nani

        http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/americans-shift-left-health-care?utm_content=buffer75c04&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

        We are playing the long game on this issue, this is by no means over. The dirty little secret of progress, it often occurs one funeral at a time. As the old guard dies off and are replaced by a greater percentage of the younger generation, the possibilities shift with the attitudes of who is left on the stage.

        I hope you are young Nani, same to you Rizzo, I want you around to see it!

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 7:22 am

        Ty
        "we all have responsibilities to pay taxes"

        Earth to Ass-Clown, come in Ass-Clown…
        An estimated 45.3% of American households — roughly 77.5 million — will pay no federal individual income tax, according to data for the 2015 tax year from the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan Washington-based research group.

        Seriously, what the F world do you live in?

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 7:28 am

        "As the old guard dies off and are replaced by a greater percentage of the younger generation, the possibilities shift with the attitudes of who is left on the stage."
        Conservatives are out-reproducing you leftists… So, yes, while the older generation will eventually die and leave the stage, Leftists are being aborted and never even getting a chance to see the stage.
        I feel very confident in our long-game… We don't support the old eating the young.
        My God… look at your leadership. Is there anyone under 80?

      • Ty  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 3:26 pm

        Why did you focus only on federal income tax? For lower earners payroll taxes take up larger shares of their tax burden. More than that, I am FINE with less of their total income being taxed since I am in favor of a progressive taxation system.

        30% of a persons income only making a thousand dollars a month is FAR more devastating than 30% of someone making 5 thousand dollars a month.

        I do not demand EQUALITY of tax burdens, I am quite explicit about this. I think it is preferable for the more well to do members of society to shoulder a higher tax burden. This does not make poor people equal to them, they are still doing better than the poor, but it allows us as a society to raise the floor higher. I get you do not think that is worth anything, but I do, and so do an awful lot of conservatives and Trump supporters. You think I am your problem Rizzo? Look at your neighbors.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 5:46 pm

        Here MORON, want to know why I focused on Federal Income Taxes? Because YOU did:

        "What's that Rizzo? You want respect for your own personal earnings to be 100% with no INCOME TAXES?
        No. You live in the United States, and as a consequence are bound by our laws. If you don't want to live by those rules, you get get the hell out and leave. Though I'm not sure where you will go. THERE ARE NO NATIONS that I am aware of that have NO INCOME TAX, perhaps Somalia or some third world developing nations that are closer to the kind of anarchic state of nature libertarian types have fevered dreams over."

        NOW YOU CAN BE AWARE OF A NATION WITH NO INCOME TAX FOR ALL…. Because remember: "We ALL have a responsibility to pay taxes"

        APPARENTLY NOT, MORON!

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 6:50 pm

        Ty… Would you like 45% of Americans who pay no INCOME TAX to "get the hell out and leave"?

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 10:28 pm

        But Ty, why does Liberals have so little faith in the working class to be able to decide what to do with their own money? To discontinue certain social programs, to not entrust their health care to a government that provides disgraceful health care for their vets? Why do Liberals think so little of our ability to think for ourselves? Why must they continue to redefine the meaning of words and indoctrinate their values as though we are incapable of choosing the right path?

        Where did all this snobbery come from?

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 10:49 pm

        Nani…

        Here is another interesting thing to contemplate about leftists.
        Ty has clearly stated that he doesn't care about debt, so why does he even care about taxes and tax-rates? I see the left's obsession with taxing "the rich" as just a way to punish the achievers, and to level the playing field to make us EQUAL.
        It's very strange… there seems to be no connection with what leftists spend and what they collect in taxes. It's very confusing?!?

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 11:09 pm

        Nani

        Another question… How can we people, who are not smart enough to know how to spend our money, also be trusted to vote for our elected leaders?
        I mean, if we are so dumb to have to have others decide how best to spend our own money, surely we must not be smart enough to be allowed to vote.
        Voting is very important, how can we people, who are apparently so dumb, be trusted to vote?

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 26, 2017 at 12:00 am

        Now Rizzo, there you go again, asking questions that just nail the Liberal "logic"! Why if we keep asking these questions, it's almost like we can think for ourselves! And don't give them any ideas. It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to take away our right to vote.

      • Ty  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 12:23 pm

        If someone pays no income tax in accordance with our laws and the tax code, so be it. And for the record, I presume most of them do not b*tch a fraction of what people like you do for their payroll taxes. But those people are bound by the same laws, as their earnings increase, so does their income tax burden. I do not expect any of them to want to leave, in fact I don't expect almost anyone to want to leave, including the wealthier population with a higher tax burden. Because the benefits of living in American civilization outweigh the costs. MUCH more so for the well to do, they more than any other group are thriving, in large part because there is a much greater return to capital than labor in modern times.

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 26, 2017 at 12:11 am

      I once confronted a Liberal friend (who decided not to be my friend anymore because I changed his mind too many times and he never once changed mine–which was "unfair") about this "equal" and "fairness" concept. I asked him how many video games his kids had. He answered "about a dozen". So I asked if it would be ok to give one to each of his two children and take the other 10 and give to those down the street who didn't have any video games. Yes, he and his wife worked hard but to be "fair" shouldn't the other 10 be given to those who didn't have any?

      He also thought we had no right to stop other nations from having nukes. I told him that just because sane people have weapons, doesn't mean that the insane should have them too.

      I was coming from the belief that Liberals truly wanted the "good" aka equality, fairness, kindness, tolerance. And I was so confused as to why they couldn't get it. But as your confrontation with Ty has shown me, they are NOT coming from love of this nation. See if this country is great, then there's nothing for them to do. They become irrelevant.

  12. Rizzo  •  Jul 23, 2017 at 3:24 pm

    Nani…
    WOW… This is your BEST work yet! You are dead-on! You have nailed it!
    I am impressed and inspired by your words!
    The left must be exposed and defeated!
    They are the enemy within. They are what Lincoln spoke about many years ago.
    I am with you in this fight!

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 23, 2017 at 7:33 pm

      Well thank you Rizzo, but I believe you deserve a lot of credit for pushing Ty into revealing exactly what Liberals are pushing. I must say it is a horrific realization. They count on the desire Americans have for civility. We must understand that we cannot afford to be civil or kind. We are fighting for the very heart of America.

      You should feel proud of what you've accomplished.

      • Ty  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 1:53 am

        Pushing? I'm pretty open about what I'm for and what I'm against. I think the opposite is true, I've forced a bit of your own hand to tip, where people lay out their true priorities. Death over life, if life = you have to socialize the care of others. That's a choice. Everything to you is socialist/communist from the left. Israel is a socialist country, Sweden, but you do not point to them as the disaster show, only Venezuela, did you forget how much redistribution the other nations have that are NOT in the gutter? Of course you did not, but those examples are not convenient to self selecting dishonest liars.

        Look at the rankings of economic freedom from HERITAGE !!!!!

        http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

        That ULTRA LEFTY COMMUNIST source.

        CANADA is above us!!!! CANADA !!!! But how could that be? they have a universal healthcare system? I thought that SINGLE FACT turned a nation into some communist hell hole? You radicalized Hannitys of logic and reason. Nothing matters but the narrative. Sad

        SAD !!!!!!!!

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 2:31 am

        Rizzo, whenever you confronted Ty and made him reply, I found myself saying "OMG" and "so THAT'S why…" You got him to lose it and in so doing lay bare the Liberal's true intentions. Americans are so used to thinking better of people that it never occurs to us that liberals want to actually destroy this country. It finally makes sense: all their blaming, believing that they have a right to the money we earn, and their intolerance for individual thought and view point.

        I can even get Ty's (and the Left's) melt down. You called him on it and it makes his guilt and shame card invalid. He's livid!

        Incredible job!

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 3:35 am

        Ty, socialism IS communism lite. The difference is that socialism works within the system offering what they believe is a better way. Communism wants the government to control everything and to do so, will destroy the system. Liberals of America crossed the line when they started bullying everyone and every thing that didn't accept their view point. They did it with the help of the media, academia and Hollywood until a whole generation were made to feel guilty and wrong to have pride in their country, to live by Christian values, to honor those who protect and fight for our freedoms.

        Regarding government controlled health care; I don't have to look any further than the health care the government gives our own vets. Quote me the data of all the nations in the world but in OUR country, this is how OUR government deals with health care. Set and match. You can't win this argument.

        As for sad. Ty, don't you get it? You lost any credibility when you refuse to accept that this nation is great. You don't want to change her out of love; your shame is apparent each time you look toward another nation as an example of a nation that we should be proud of. Your demand to take the individual's money and allow others to decide what to do with it insults the American worker. With every word, you make clear your contempt for America and her culture. To live in a country you only want to change is more than sad; it's pathetic. But I no longer feel pity. Pity is for those who can't help themselves. You can but you choose not to.

    • Jim Bird  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 12:39 am

      I second that Nani!

  13. Rizzo  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 6:29 pm

    Ty
    Oh NO… Heritage ranks Canada above the US in economic freedom! Say it isn't so!
    Most of the US low-ranking is based on Debt… but, I know you leftists don't care about that.
    Also, thanks for proving my point… The US is ranked below Canada, and yet you demand even
    MORE government control. You are so "balanced"
    And leftists choose Death over life, if life = you have to give up government control of healthcare and stop denying people basic freedoms.
    Also… I NEVER said Obamacare increased mortality rates. I simply pointed out that more people have died annually since the implementation of Obamacare. That's a FACT!
    Clearly, having "Health Coverage" does NOT improve healthcare. The last time I checked, veterans have 100%, ironclad "Coverage"… how's that working out?
    People need ACCESS TO QUALITY HEALTHCARE, not government handouts called "Coverage".
    Government "poisons the well" of free-markets, and creates disasters… Debt, Shortages, sky-rocketing prices, etc., etc., etc.

    Lastly, Nani… don't you find it very ironic that Ty thinks we are "radical". We seek to preserve the American way of life. We embrace the founding, and the principles that have made America the GREATEST COUNTRY TO EVER EXIST. And he is the "balanced" one… the one who wants to steal money, rob freedom and destroy America.
    Leftists live in BIZARRO-WORLD! Black is white, up is down, and bad is good.

  14. Rizzo  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 8:23 pm

    Nani… Here is what we are dealing with.
    If I rob you at gunpoint, and steal your money, it's ok. Actually, it's better than ok, it's virtuous, just so long as I take that stolen money and give it to a poor, sick guy.

    It's unbelievable. Leftists can actually rationalize theft, so long as it serves their socialist purposes.

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 11:32 pm

      Rizzo, yes I got that but I didn't know WHY they could not understand that they were stealing until you cornered Ty into admitting that they believe our money belonged to the collective WHOLE. All of a sudden it all made sense. That is why they claim that the rich, despite paying the lion's share of taxes are not paying their "fair" share and why the Hollywood fat cats aren't counted among this group not paying their "fair" share. If it belongs to the collective whole, then the "good" ones are taking what they are entitled to; the others are taking more than they should (according to Liberals). As I said, it was an eye opening thread and you are the one that did the opening. I've shared this insight with family and friends.

      Thank you.

  15. Rizzo  •  Jul 24, 2017 at 8:29 pm

    Ty
    Let's suppose for a moment, ok?
    What if I could guarantee you the greatest healthcare for everybody… beyond any of your Utopian Dreams. But, you have to surrender ALL of your income to Government. Would you support that?

    • Ty  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 3:35 pm

      No. And almost no liberal would advocate for that aside from true loons. I am not seeking Utopia, every time you use that word to describe my positions or where I want to go, you are lying about me and liberals around this nation. I am seeking higher ground. I would never claim that life today is worse than life 50 years ago or even a hundred years ago for most people. But that is not a reason to rest on our laurels. If I had that slothful attitude I'd be a conservative. Unless there is some explicit reason that we cannot easily get to some higher ground of human flourishing (i.e. something like more people getting access to quality healthcare without the threat of medical BANKRUPTCY for things outside their control), then I want to keep striving to go higher.

      Because of the indolence of the conservative mind, they just farm out most ideas and policy plans to improve society to the market, as if that was the ONLY effective tool possible. My assumptions are not as SMALL as yours Rizzo, that's what makes me a Liberal and not a conservative.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 5:29 pm

        Ty…
        WOW, so you oppose the greatest Healthcare system ever devised… and for selfish reasons no less.
        You actually want to keep your money and let people die!
        You are full of hate! You hate the poor! You hate the sick!
        You don't want "higher ground", you just want to hoard your money for yourself.
        Seriously, what kind of leftists are you? You talk the talk, but won't walk the walk.
        You are all for handing over government control to everything but your money.
        You must actually want people to die.

        Do you see how f'ing ridiculous you are now?

        I doubt it… All you can do is lead a horse to water. Unless of course you are a leftist, then you can force it to drink!

      • Ty  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 12:13 pm

        If the "greatest healthcare system ever devised" still leaves tens of millions of Americans with limited access to that greatness, and costs double what it costs other nations, then you bet your ass I want to improve upon that. If you don't, if you think it's fine where it is, or only tiny tweaks are needed, fine. That's why you're a conservative. That is why I am telling you that your attitude leaves nations in the ditch and behind, because of your low expectations for improvement you are less likely to strive for better. Just farm it out to the market, and if that does not deliver? Pretend the market was not pure enough and fill in the gaps of knowledge with assumptions that if it was everything would be even more ideal.

        I can't make that maneuver as easily as you, because I do not worship the free market as some all powerful GOD like you do, that always produces the best results. I am not a child, I do not presume that the minds of men, given more perfect freedom, will yield better results. I want to restrict the sale of Heroin to 5 year olds, I think that market restriction produces better results for society, if you do too, is it SOOOOOOOOOO difficult to imagine there might be SOMETHING like that related to flawed human thinking and decisions relating to healthcare expenditures?

        If all the young men and women that were able and healthy paid for insurance when they were young and healthy, even when it was clear it was not needed at the time, insurance premiums would be lower. IF. But we are not dealing with creatures of IF, we are dealing with the fallen nature of mankind, that is NOT perfectly rational, not perfectly forward looking, and even if they were, NOT omniscient about the future and what will be needed for health, not able to determine ahead of time if/when/how much healthcare they will need.

        I have a solution for that, put the ENTIRE nation into the same risk pool, called universal healthcare, so we can better deal with those edge cases, NOT rely on the absolute rationality of mankind in health matters that does not exist. Or we can stick with your plan. A Free for all. State of nature, personal decisions, and never mind that the kinds of signals that work in non life and death markets that can course correct the behavior of men are not the same with human health and life. All you need to hear is market and all will be well.

        Every molecule of wisdom is stripped out of you, like some hollowed out husk of a man. And you are not alone, you are a common feature of a conservative mind. The arrogance wafting off you combined with your incalculable lack of knowledge is only matched by your certainty you have the correct answers.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 2:58 pm

        Ty, you do know that you really can't win this argument. Americans have seen for ourselves how the government provides health care. We've seen the mess and lack of compassion government officials deal with those who fought for this nation and you want us to trust the health care of the rest of us to that? Tell you what, when the government has shown DECENT care for our vets' health care, THEN, we can talk about actually handing over the care of our children and our families to them. Until then, you have nothing to stand on.

      • Ty  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 3:42 pm

        Keep looking at the universe through a straw Nani, focus on VA care issues ONLY, ignore all the people who get great care with medicare (single payer for the conservative morons who are supportive of that but too stupid to know what it is, or care), ignore dozens of different models around the world, no, just focus on a tiny sliver of universal care with one slice of the population where even that care is uneven based on region and different times and funding levels.

        I choose not to claw my own eyes out and ignore all the working models, I choose not to be a small minded little ideologue conservative. Long term, we got this, I and other liberals do not have to convince you Nani, we have to convince the next generation, and this is not looking good for you. Tick Tock, keep fighting that battle of attrition, like I said before, I hope you are young so you can see your dreams die with healthcare policy, and then… when the sky does not fall, and your own costs go down, I want to see you say you were Wrong!

        Of course, that last is my own fantasy. That aint never happening, I know. If the upside was saving millions of lives for the tiny cost of admitting you were wrong on healthcare and that the LIBERALS were right, those millions would die in FLAMES before that conservative PRIDE would falter. A shield of ideology, where the tenants of the ideology are the highest and most sacred constructs to protect, not what the ideology yields, not the results, of those are off, the results are wrong, not the belief.

        We don't need to change your mind Nani, you chose to be a mental slave to an ideology, but others are not so chained as you've chosen to be.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 4:44 pm

        Medicare is great? Oh Ty, once again you are just proving my point.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 10:10 pm

        Ty?
        "I choose not to claw my own eyes out and ignore all the working models"

        Yet… Somehow you manage to ignore the greatest model ever devised. It's called the US Constitutional Republic Model. It has created more wealth for more people ever in the history of the world. It has created a standard of living unseen in world history.

        So, if you're not clawing out your own eyes, one must surmise you have something wrong with your brain.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 11:17 pm

        Yeah… Medicare is a glowing example of "a working model"

        This guy lives in a TOTAL ALTERNATE REALITY!

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 28, 2017 at 8:33 am

        Once again Ty, you are trying to connect the dots, and turn correlations into causal evidence. You make these ridiculous claims that the US pays double what other countries pay in healthcare. Then you act like that is directly caused by the type of healthcare system.
        We know, as a matter of FACT, the US has a very large, very diverse, very unhealthy population… in many cases, self-imposed unhealthiness (poor diet, obesity, lack of exercise, etc.). We know, as a matter of FACT, it costs more to treat the US population vs. homogeneous Japan.
        You have ZERO evidence that increased US government involvement in healthcare (single payer) will reduce costs. You can give me ZERO evidence that government involvement in the private-sector has EVER lead to lower costs. You must have clawed yours eyes out long ago to have missed that FACT! We know, as a matter of FACT, Obamacare didn't lower costs as was promised. We know, as a matter of FACT, more people have died on annual basis since the implementation of Obamacare.
        PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, what secret is it that you know, that gives you faith in government control?

  16. Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 7:13 am

    You ask, what is the market value of life?
    Well, I ask you, what is the arbitrary, government-assigned value of life?
    Aren't government run bureaucracies so compassionate?

    3 March 2017: Mr Justice Francis starts to analyse the case at a hearing in the Family Division of the High Court in London.

    11 April: Mr Justice Francis says doctors can stop providing life-support treatment.

    3 May: Charlie's parents ask Court of Appeal judges to consider the case.

    23 May: Three Court of Appeal judges analyse the case.

    25 May: Court of Appeal judges dismiss the couple's appeal.

    8 June: Charlie's parents lose fight in the Supreme Court.

    20 June: Judges in the European Court of Human Rights start to analyse the case after lawyers representing Charlie's parents make written submissions.

    27 June: Judges in the European Court of Human Rights refuse to intervene.

    3 July: The Pope and US President Donald Trump offer to intervene.

    7 July: Great Ormond Street Hospital applies for a fresh hearing at the High Court.

    24 July: Charlie's parents end their legal fight to take him to the US for treatment.

  17. Rizzo  •  Jul 25, 2017 at 7:58 pm

    "My assumptions are not as SMALL as yours Rizzo, that's what makes me a Liberal and not a conservative."
    Oh I know…. You are hyper-skilled and the engine of progress. You are a mastermind.
    You can layout the plans for society and how to micro-manage every minute detail of life, from the mundane to the most complex.
    For you and your kind, you can determine who is "rich", and who is "poor" and based on that, you can determine who gets punished and for how much and who reaps the rewards of your plunder.
    You are noble, and you should be judged not by your outcomes, but rather your intentions.

  18. Rizzo  •  Jul 27, 2017 at 11:38 pm

    Ty
    When has government ever got involved and "costs go down"?
    Government involvement reduces effiencies, creates shortages, increases prices, debt, etc., etc., etc.
    Now, please share with us… What gives you faith in your government utopian religion?

  19. Rizzo  •  Jul 28, 2017 at 10:00 am

    Want to know what single-payer leads to?

    "We’ve had no control over our son’s life and no control over our son’s death.”

    Welcome to the compassion and caring of BIG GOVERNMENT. Welcome to the collective, where you are no longer an individual, with individual God-given, natural RIGHTS. You are now a number, where your decisions are made for you… not on your behalf, but what beauracrats decide is in the best interest of the collective.

    And this is one of many ways that single-payer will control costs. Sarah Palin was 100% correct when she talked about the DEATH PANELS.
    YOU ARE WITNESSING IT TODAY!

  20. Rizzo  •  Jul 28, 2017 at 11:10 am

    But rest easy. It is Ty's belief, it's his religion, that consolidated, centralized government will save us all and deliver us to Utopia. Now, he has ZERO examples of where that has actually happened, but reality and facts have not been able to dampen his devotion.
    We will all have coverage… 100%, just like the VA. This coverage will undoubtedly limit our access to QUALITY HEALTHCARE, but don't despair, YOU WILL BE COVERED!

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