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Public Opinion, Obamacare & GOP Reform

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In 2010, the health insurance legislation known as “Obamacare” was overwhelmingly unpopular. But Democrats in the White House and Congress pushed it through anyway, and then paid a severe price in the next elections. Today, the health care package known as “Trumpcare” is similarly unpopular, but the Republicans seem determined to pass legislation this summer, even at the risk of serious losses of their own in 2018 Congressional elections.

Does this mean the electorate is confused?–hating Obamacare, and then hating the most serious attempt to repeal and replace it? Actually, public reactions are sensible and consistent–what Americans hate is the whole idea of the federal government making sweeping, bureaucratic decisions, one way or another, on something as personal and important as medical insurance.

If the GOP made clear that their proposals provide individuals with more choices, and give the states more discretion to shape their own policies, their reforms would win much broader popular support.

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  1. Ty  •  Jun 22, 2017 at 1:03 am

    Conservative Logic:

    I have 3 options for healthcare under obamacare, I can only afford 1 as a 60 year old.

    I have 5 options for healthcare under Trumpcare, I can't afford any as a 60 year old.

    Conservative: More options under Trump care? ?!???! OMFG, I AM BETTER OFF !!!!!!!!! I have more CHOICE !!!!

    Liberal : But.. can you afford the choices?

    Conservative : No, but there are more of them !!!!

    Liberal : … we deserve these leaders with people this dumb.

  2. Rizzo  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 7:37 am

    Conservative: The US is $20 trillion in debt.

    Liberal: Don't care… I want my "free" stuff.

    • DeeW  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 5:02 pm

      … & Rizzo WINS with basic truth & logic ⭐️⭐️⭐️…
      (Ty, like really… do you honestly believe that?… for us, it's absolutely alllll about cost).

      • Ty  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 7:20 pm

        No Dee, if it was about cost conservatives would be for a Swedish or Israeli style universal health care model.

        What you vicious paragons of selfishness are bothered by is having to help pay for OTHER people's care. THAT is what you cannot abide.

        Most people would pay less for care, higher taxes coupled to even larger drops in private insurance costs would net the average person MORE money in their pocket at the end of the day. But not all people. And that is the rub for vicious conservatives. People who are higher earners would be paying more in taxes than they are currently paying for private insurance.

        People like Medved, Prager, Mark Levin, Shapiro. That extra money would go to help pay for peoples care that were lower earners and could not afford private care, or who still paid in taxes like everyone else but not enough to cover their costs. In essence we would socialize the costs of care, where the SUM total of of the worth of the life of a man was NOT based off his ability to pay.

        And you vicious hateful people cannot STAND being asked to pay for that. Someone can't pay for their own care? Let em DIE!

        Conservative : but emergency rooms !

        That is for acute care, that is not going to cover the cost of a needed cancer drug. Second class care for second class people, back to a state of nature. Should have worked harder, or been born smarter, last not your fault? Then blame God or nature, ANYTHING but expect a scrap of decency from conservatives on Healthcare policy. Pure meritocracy in ALL things, even life and death. And these deceit filled conservatives DARE call themselves pro life. They don't give a damn about human life the MOMENT you link obligatory taxes to help preserve it.

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 24, 2017 at 7:30 am

        No moron, what bothers conservatives is the idea that the ONLY solution to EVERY problem is MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL.
        For example, liberals think compassion is government spending more money on welfare and having more individuals benefiting from welfare programs. Conservatives believe that compassion is creating a thriving society where less people need welfare.
        Regarding healthcare, liberals believe in the phony notion that if we force people to have "insurance" and give the poor "free insurance" that that somehow equals healthcare.
        "Health insurance" does not equal health care. And really, if we are being honest Ty, what we are talking about isn't even insurance… It's just a mass redistribution of wealth plan. You libs love the word "sustainable"… Sustainable energy, sustainable food, sustainable blah, blah, blah. What you are suggesting is UNSUSTAINABLE. NOTHING you ever suggest, results in lowering the cost of health care, which would make it much more affordable to everyone.
        It's the typical, liberal strawman… if anyone opposes more government control of healthcare to benefit the "poor", then they must oppose helping the poor.
        It's a pathetic, close-minded worldview. In a way, you libs are like North Koreans… a typical North Korean could never conceive of anything outside of the context of their dear-leader… you libs are the same when it comes to solving problems. You can never conceive of a solution to any problem that doesn't involve MORE government, more regulations, and less individual freedom.
        It must be getting very tight in that box you put yourself in… I hope you're not Claustrophobic.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 pm

        Ty, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. There were two choices: either you didn't realize that entitlements weren't free or you did and you WANT to take OTHER people's hard earned money to pay for YOUR vision of what this country should be. It is rather sad that it is the latter. You make such sweeping statements that my refusal to trust the government with my health care means I don't want to pay any taxes for say: what the Federal government is SUPPOSED to pay for, like defense. I find it astounding that anyone would trust the government with such an important part of our lives; have you been paying any attention to what is going on with the Vets health care? No Ty, I am not a libertarian. I just understand that the government cannot be trusted with our health care and it cannot continue to milk the working class.

    • Ty  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 6:41 pm

      A country is not a private household, stop pretending the national debt ought to be treated the same way. And for the record, if Democrats could raise taxes for universal health care, the deficits could easily shrink. In fact the deficit was shrinking under Obama.

  3. Dennis Santillo  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    The electorate is ignorant and emotional. They disliked Obamacare sufficiently to allow R's to run on and win in large part on the pledge to repeal and replace. The measure is failing. Now, however, as the R's try to repeal and replace it, in a convoluted process because D's won't admit the disaster and help, the public all of sudden likes Obamacare again, because D's are using fear tactics to oppose "Trumpcare." All the terrible things about Obamacare are still true, but now the emotional and ignorant electorate is moved in the other direction. Can you imagine being a legislator trying to do what is right in this environment? It is no wonder they spin. You get the government you deserve…unfortunately. In a democratic society, the electorate is always responsible for what transpires.

    • Pat Allen  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:18 pm

      Left wing socialist fool! Move to Venezuela where things are working they way you want them to here.

  4. Kpar  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 6:46 pm

    I would like to address the public opinion part of this. What I would really like is for a Republican to show up on the Sunday morning talking heads shows and ask their (liberal, but that would be redundant wouldn't it, except for FNC?) hosts the following two questions:

    1) Do you think that public opinion is swayed by mainstream press reporting?
    2) What do you, personally, want for the Trump Administration? Failure or success?

    • Ty  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 7:44 pm

      You all really need to stop crying and playing the helpless little victims just because the "mainstream media" are not filled with Mark Levin clones.

      Most of them are personal liberals that temper those sentiments orders of magnitude more compared to conservative talk show hosts and conservative media personalities.

      What DECADE do you think we live in? Ever heard of this thing called the Internet? Ever heard of the absolute dominance of a HYPER conservative world view on hundreds of talk radio stations across the nation?

      Conservative: But that NY times columnist was mean to trump and wrote he was telling falsehoods! Only talk about Trump and conservative policies the way I want to hear them !!!!!!!

      No. And get over it. You are not a damn victim and you are not bound to only hearing liberal viewpoints in 2017. It has literally Never been easier to shut yourself in a bubble, and judging from the detritus conservatives call arguments on most of talk radio shows, most of them must be doing exactly that. Most of you are not me, can't stand hearing those big bad liberals espouse views and narratives that don't match conservative dogmas. Want all us liberals to just disarm while Trump and conservative ideologues lie themselves across the nation.

      Not, going, to happen.

    • Bill Baxter  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 2:07 pm

      1. The mainstream press has some effect on public opinion but not a whole lot. They are still the best source for accurate news especially if you don't limit yourself to only one of them.

      2. I wish the Trump administration success in crushing ISIS and improving relations with Russia.

      I oppose almost everything else Trump is trying to do. I believe that his health care plan will hurt the public health if enacted. I don't like his protectionist trade ideas, I believe they will hurt both our and our trading partners economies if enacted.

      I have a very low opinion of his slogan "Make America Great Again". America is now, was in 2015 when he came up with this slogan, and for at least the last 70 years, has been the world's greatest and strongest nation.

  5. kevin meechan  •  Jun 23, 2017 at 11:52 pm

    Hey Ty,
    A. Wow, conservatives are vicious and hateful, how original and insightful and we want people to die! Did you come up with that all by yourself? It's pretty clear which side of the aisle in general is the more mean, hateful, vicious and unhinged these days (hint: LEFT). The only person on this thread with anger and hyperbole and is clearly unhinged is you. The vast majority of conservatives don't hate you or the poor or anyone else, we don't think liberals or "progressives" are terrible people, just wrong on their ideas. WE're not the ones calling for the death or impeachment of a President and rioting and shutting down speeches of folks we don't like or trying to destroy TV networks (although Fox has obviously damaged it's own reputation badly as well, good riddance to the creep Ayles)
    B. Dennis sums it up well, now that the Obamacare system is in place we are stuck with it to some degree and the Republicans are pretty much screwed no matter what they do or don't do with it. Doing nothing while it implodes and more exchanges fail and more insurers leave the market isn't really an option either.
    C. Regarding caring for the poor: we already had a system for that. It is called Medicaid. Why did we need to overhaul everybody else's insurance just to expand Medicaid? Most of the "newly insured" under ACA were just additional Medicaid enrolees anyway. 80% of people were reasonably happy with their coverage other than rising costs (which Obamacare has not helped, what a surprise).
    D. Yes the deficits as far as the eye can see DO MATTER and we will pay a more serious price eventually because neither party nor the public seem to take it seriously. And don't delude yourself about deficits shrinking under Obama, they came down for a few years after the "recovery" from the 2007 collapse but were projected to go back to rising indefinitely (and still are). Obama and the D's (and many R's) don't give a rip about deficits, they care about getting re-elected and giving people the most "free stuff" to earn praise and votes from presumably well meaning but short sighted voters like yourself
    E. I vote for an Australian type two tiered system: govt run for the poor and those that prefer that and private paid for with personal $ for those that prefer that. One of the big problems with ACA is that it limits what those with the means can purchase. As I am not a collectivist/progressive/Democrat I do not envy others' success and don't see the logic in "punishing" the successful by forcing them into a govt system just to make it "fair"
    F. Calm down and rein in the insults and maybe we will take you more seriously

    • Ty  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 3:22 am

      One of the big lies about liberals is that we hate or resent successful people, or that we want equality of outcomes for all people and groups. That is not true. But on outcomes, in some select spheres there is a partial truth there. On healthcare, I freely admit, I want more than equal opportunity to healthcare access, I want more equal outcomes in the access to care as well. I've said this before, but I do not want life and death of human beings fully determined by some purely meritocratic system of a persons resources and ability to pay. But that is only one sphere of life, I'm perfectly willing to accept all sorts of inequality of outcomes in most other spheres of life.

      As far as deficits go, when Japan collapses, call me. They have far more debt than we do, and are not disintegrating as a society… aside from population where they kind of are.

      Medicaid is not ideal because the payments are too low and many doctors do not want to take those patients. I'd rather have a baseline system that was much better in terms of funding where medicaid patients had access to the same types of care and access people in the employer market do. That does not imply a removal of all private insurance, Germany has a Bismark healthcare model with public funding of a solid baseline, but allows private insurance for gold plated healthcare plans on top. Well Germany has that.

      • Pat Allen  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:19 pm

        Ty will take your freedom – in all issues – to ensure that things are more fair and equal. We are all equal (but pigs are more equal)!

  6. Nani Tavares  •  Jun 25, 2017 at 6:17 pm

    There is an old saying that the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. The big con is that conservatives don't care about the poor. The truth is that government entitlements don't care about the working people. There isn't enough rich or money from the rich to pay for what the poor has come to believe they are entitled to; the money has to come from somewhere and so it does, from the largest group of people, the tax payers. I wonder how many hard working people would feel sorry for the "hungry" child or "homeless" unemployed or "nursing home" grandmother if it was made clear that they would have to take from their own children, the room that they need for their own adult children's family after losing their jobs when the "rich" had to fold up their companies, or the money they give to help their elderly parents to help the poor. Because THAT is the bottom line. Taxes come from you and me. It comes out of our hard earned money that we need to take care of our own. The only thing that any American is entitled to is opportunity period.

    • Ty  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 3:12 am

      Conservatives care about the poor until they are asked to pay for them beyond charitable donations. Then they are exactly as you revealed yourself to be at the end, your money is there to take care of your own. But society is not based on you and your family alone, no civilization is.

      As citizens we get to decide what kind of society we live in, what kind of general welfare we want to pay for. We did not start out funding education for every child by default, we do now. That's an entitlement that we are quite happy to confiscate from people through taxes. You cannot deny this reality, you have already bought into the general principle but like most conservatives want to pretend that you or the nation as a whole wants some total free for all.

      Funding k-12 education does not make us socialist. Neither would funding a universal healthcare system. Redistribution =/= socialism on its own. Education is a form of opportunity so that is easier for conservatives to swallow, healthcare seems more like a privilege to be paid for out of pocket, but a wealthy society like ours can easily afford a UHC system if we overhaul our system. You would still be taking care of your own, but here the liberal impulse to look outside your own personal self, own personal family, own personal tribe would have some purchase where we could fund access to healthcare for all of our citizens. I would be happy to pay for that through taxes. Happy to shift away from our rotten employer funded system focus that before the exchanges and the ACA, constrained the freedom of men. But that is the sad part, you would be more free and pay less in a universal healthcare model, most conservatives would, but they would rather bind themselves and their own families in chains rather than move to a system just because they'd be paying for others care in addition to their own. That last bit of cruelty and pettiness is what I find so vicious about their views. Principles and stances ought to serve the interests of the people that hold them, but too many conservatives have been trapped by those "principles" and beliefs to the point where they serve the beliefs, whether those lead to better outcomes or not. The tail wagging the dog, a people in self imposed cages. And unfortunately, there are not enough liberals in power to free them and ourselves.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 4:01 am

        Ty, Entitlements are not free, It has to come from someone. You act like the government is a nameless nobody who is less "rotten" than those who risked all to have a business that provide jobs. EVERY TIME you allow the government to control a part of your life, you give up part of your freedom. You only need to look to any government program to see what a mess it turns out. But putting aside the folly of depending on politicians for your health care, we ARE talking about tax payers money. You do not get to guilt anyone to part with money they have earned. That is the great con that that has been pushed on the tax payer: that they are responsible for the poor, unemployed, homeless etc. Sorry, it is MY money and I am not responsible for anyone else.

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 9:40 am

        Nani

        You are absolutely correct! Ty acts like we live in a FREE SOCIETY, that we actually have a FULLY capitalistic society. That we conservatives pay nothing, above and beyond our charitable donations. The FACT is, we don't live in a free society, and our circle of freedom gets smaller by the day. The FACT is, we conservatives, pay theses confiscatory taxes on top of our charitable donations.
        The FACT is, we will pay MORE for these liberal, utopian dreams, (General Welfare), than we will pay for anything else in our lifetimes.
        ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Your FAILED ideology has been tried. It doesn't work.
        The US is trillions of dollars in debt, we have paid trillions of dollars for ALL of your leftist, government-controlled dreams, and we have yet to reach Nirvana.
        How much more, Ty? Is it ONLY when every US citizens surrenders all of their money to government, that we will reach UTOPIA?
        How much more do we need to pay?
        At what price-point can we say… "We are here! We have reached PERFECTION! Utopia is OURS!!!!!"

      • Ty  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 2:39 pm

        I NEVER claimed entitlements were free. I and EVERY other liberal knows they cost money, and we want to PAY for them through taxes. Don't play stupid. The difference between us is that WE are OK with paying for them through taxes, and you are not. You want a world where you pay for ME and MINE.

        And what you just said is a LIE Nani.

        PAY attention, get this through that thick conservative skull.

        k-12 education, OR funding for vouchers, is the GOVERNMENT, repeat it for me, GOVERNMENT SOCIALIZING the costs of education. Taking money from private citizens and businesses, and PAYING for the education of children in society. Does that restrict their freedom? In some ways I suppose it does, they are less free to stop learning to read and go work on the farm. IS that the society we live in today Nani?

        What god damn CENTURY do you think we are living in? This atavistic, guttural world view stuck in a ditch is NOT a model for a modern society.

        For most people, that restriction in freedom of children INCREASES their total freedom gained from an education, and the fact that our society PAYS for that through taxes allows a BASELINE guarantee of that opportunity that we as a society WANT to pay for and buy into. If we did not do that, children would be more free as children, and LESS free in life later on. So don't you effing dare talk to me about freedom, you conservatives think you OWN the god damn word, such arrogant people.

        All you seem to care about is NEGATIVE freedom, like a nihilist. Modern liberals have an eye to BOTH negative freedom AND positive freedom, and want some balance between them. THAT is what makes us better.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfhQhdA-zss

        Your money? Your money after taxes. Don't like how society spends your taxes, you are FREE to leave. But those are the rules of living in this thing called "civilization"

        It's not ALL about what YOU want Nani, not all about what YOU desire, Empress Tavares. Dig deeper into conservative dogma, you get closer to some libertarian ethical extreme, which at its core is an anti government anarchist model. ME and MINE alone, then go live alone, that model does not work in a modern society. Deal with it.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 3:25 pm

        Ty, hit a nerve did I? You brought up the educational system which EXACTLY proves my point. For most American children the public (aka government) run schools are a disasters which makes the working tax payer pay twice: once for the government run disasters and twice to send their kids to private schools for a decent education. Again, you are trying to make me feel guilty because I refuse to shoulder the blame for the rest of the world. Sorry bud, but it ain't flying no more. And yeah it is MY money before taxes; in fact do you know that the personal income tax was supposed to be to pay for the war for a period of TEN YEARS???? The government that you trust so much decided to "amend" the constitution so they can take it forever. The people of America is tired. Sick of all this guilt being dumped on them. I'm not White but I resent all this American blame. We are NOT responsible for the sins of the past. Most of us don't remember a time when there was no equality of race or gender. We live in a world where everyone believes they are owed something; well sorry but this wallet is closed. I got my own to worry about and everyone should do the same. The only thing you are entitled to is opportunity, not less than me and mine and certainly not more. You are angry that other Americans dare to not want your vision of a society and that the guilt card no longer works. Oh well.

      • Ty  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 4:40 pm

        The nerve hit was your LIE that liberals don't know entitlements are not free. It's a BS statement, and EVERY time you hear that trash talk on talk radio, I want you to know it's a conservative LIE told by both hosts and callers. If you are content with the lie, then eat it up. IT would not surprise me to learn you enjoy that kind of diet.

        And you seem mad about income taxes. Tough. That's the law, that is what society decided we wanted. We wanted a system where SOME of the incomes people earn are taxed to pay for different government services.

        If you reject that model, what you reject is every modern society in the entire world. YOU are the radical, you are not even being conservative here, you are advocating some Randian Galts gultch sort of world where it's literally a total free for all.

        No one is asking you to feel guilty, you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, we are just talking about what kind of society we want to have. You want a Galts Gultch style free for all. Problem for you, most PEOPLE don't Nani. That includes most conservatives.

        So your agitation is civilization itself. You ought to go try to carve out a space in antarctica, there you will be totally free from all governmental constraints. And IF that truly is the highest ideal, then that kind of place ought to be ideal.

        But of course, your positive freedoms would be greatly diminished, the kind of freedoms liberals seem to care more about. So I wonder, will you follow you dogma like a true believer, or will you coward like the craven human I suspect you to be? Trying to get all of the positive freedoms that living in American Civilization offers in 2017, but want NONE of the costs.

        You're attitude is a parasite on humanity.

      • Pat Allen  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:20 pm

        Ty – you are a sick man… when you and your kind take over power who will you kill first?

  7. Joci  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 3:42 pm

    Conservative or liberal views, neither really gets it.

  8. Rizzo  •  Jun 28, 2017 at 10:30 pm

    "The nerve hit was your LIE that liberals don't know entitlements are not free."

    To MOST liberals it IS FREE. They either don't pay the taxes, which fund their government UTOPIAN DREAMS… or they just add to the debt, for some future generation to pay for.
    Yeah, you leftists are REAL COMPASIONATE!

    Lets do an analysis of why Ty might have this undying belief in government.
    The US Post Office? Nope
    Public Schools? Not on your life.
    Medicare? Oh hell NO.
    VA? LOL!!!!
    Ummm…. oh, oh, oh Social Security? Don't make me puke at that Ponzi-Scheme.

    I give up…. what it is Ty? What fuels your belief in the Government Utopia?

    • Ty  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 2:38 am

      I listen to conservatives talk about the evils of government, like you do, and realize that no one that unhinged could possibly be on target.

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 6:59 am

        Why will you leftists NEVER answer these logical, and fundament questions:
        1. At what price will we reach government-funded Utopia? Do we give 50% of what I earn, more?
        2. Give me examples of where government does anything better than the private sector?
        3. What gives you faith that a government takeover will result in lower prices, greater access, deficit/debt reduction, and greater quality?

        Government has a narrow and defined role in America. When government performs these legitimate tasks, it does a relatively good job. Government has expanded and continues to grow outside its legitimate roles… As a result, it creates havoc and destroys freedom.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 3:18 pm

        Ty, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. There were two choices: either you didn't realize that entitlements weren't free or you did and you WANT to take OTHER people's hard earned money to pay for YOUR vision of what this country should be. It is rather sad that it is the latter. You make such sweeping statements that my refusal to trust the government with my health care means I don't want to pay any taxes for say: what the Federal government is SUPPOSED to pay for, like defense. I find it astounding that anyone would trust the government with such an important part of our lives; have you been paying any attention to what is going on with the Vets health care? No Ty, I am not a libertarian. I just understand that the government cannot be trusted with our health care and it cannot continue to milk the working class.

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 7:23 pm

        Amen Nani…
        Leftists like Ty think there is some imaginary class of ULTRA-RICH people who will pay for his Utopian Dreams. Morons like Ty don't realize there are not enough rich people to pay for his dreams… there isn't enough money to pay for his unrealistic vision of the world.
        He's pathetic…. He's a child.

      • Ty  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 9:19 pm

        What the federal government is supposed to pay for is partly determined by what our representatives DECIDE they want the government to pay for, else what is the point of having them? Why not just freeze almost all law making and spending and priorities to whatever were the priorities of the early 1800s? What we want in 2017 is meaningless. If a small town wants to spend money on a bridge that is ok, but if it wants to spend money to build out fiber internet, is that bad? What if private companies are not doing the job because they do not see the economic cost of that? Who decides what is and is not legitimate? YOU Nani? YOU Rizzo?

        Here is the rub, and you are not going to like this. WE ALL DO. Not JUST people who think like you, people who think like me as well, through our representatives. Deal with it.

        And why don't you go ask Michael what he thinks of universal healthcare. He has family in Israel, a thriving capitalistic economy in the middle east, where they have universal healthcare. They are not some Venezuela style banana republic, they are doing quite well, pay very little for healthcare, and get fantastic results. You keep asking for examples, I've given non US examples. You see, when you have people in power that are NOT nihilists when it comes to government, the results can be quite good. And because the Israelis did that in that ONE sphere, did that mean that the government went to take over the rest of the economy? Banned private ownership and property? curtailed other spheres of market capitalism? No, they did no such thing. There is you example. Now go on and ignore it. Pretend I gave none. LIE. You have to to stay that willfully ignorant.

  9. Rizzo  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 11:12 pm

    Ty
    "Who decides what is and is not legitimate?"
    Are you stoopid? Obviously, we ALL KNOW WHO DECIDES. But, are they able to decide EVERYTHING FOR EVERYBODY? Are there limits to what can be decided?
    In case you didn't know… The answer is YES. There are limits.
    Go read the Constituion, Moron.

    • Ty  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 1:09 am

      You lost in the supreme court like a century ago, atavus, the income tax is constitutional, as is federal funding of numerous programs like social security and beyond.

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 7:46 am

        You understand, your reference is not relevant at all, right?
        Income tax is, of course, Constitutional. But, what are the limits on what they are used for and how much the government can confiscate?
        Can the federal government take 100% of our earned money?
        Can the federal government use that money to force every US citizen to have a gun?
        Can they use it, to fund sanctuary cities that prohibit gay-marriage?
        You see… When you grant government the power, that you advocate for, they won't always flex that power in ways that you like.

  10. Rizzo  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 11:37 pm

    Ty… aka moron

    Israel = 8 million citizens
    US = 321 million citizens

    Get the picture? Of course not.

    • Ty  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 1:11 am

      Germany has around 80 million people, so what?

      The US is the most populous western nation so trying to compare another wealthy western nation with at least 300 million people is a standard that cannot be met. But again, what is the point? Why do you think a universal healthcare system can't scale to 300 million people? You do realize that though we have more people that would need to be covered… wait for it… we have more people working and earning money right?

      • Rizzo  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 7:39 am

        I scaled it down to 10 people… comparing 5 diverse, unhealthy individuals vs. 5 homogeneous, healthy people.
        Wait for it… Their health outcomes and money spent on healthcare are TOTALLY independent from any healthcare system.
        Get the point?

      • Ty  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 3:43 pm

        You scaled it to a retarded level, and a scenario that WILL NOT exist by covering 300 million people.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 12:39 pm

        No Ty… I scaled it to a micro-level, where you can actually compare apples to apples.
        It clearly demonstrates the fallacy of your comparisons.

  11. Rizzo  •  Jun 29, 2017 at 11:46 pm

    And just so you know… Israel is not even ranked in the top-50 World Economic Freedom Index.
    So please quit embarrassing yourself and always comparing us with every other lesser, insignificant country in the world.

    • Ty  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 1:18 am

      I keep using Israel to create some cognitive dissonance in the conservative mind, you love Israel and Bibi Netanyahu, but hate universal healthcare systems. It is interesting that none of you have gone out of your way to trash Israels healthcare system, or call Bibi a "SOCIALIST"

      small progress, I suppose.

      But since you seem to care now about rankings of healthcare systems, here is one.

      https://producaoindustrialblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

      We're Number … 37…

      So proud you must be. I'm sure if we restricted it to the well to do it might be near the top, but it's a strange thing some of these lists try to take into account, the healthcare access and quality for the entire population, and not just those with means. It's almost as if THEY think that ALL life matters?

      Must be convenient to be a conservative, much like black lives matters, you get to ignore everyone else and just care about those that are able to pay.

  12. Rizzo  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 7:34 am

    I'm not proud at all…. It is YOU, who should be proud. If you leftists have your way, that ranking will be sure to go even lower.
    You libs are like locusts…. destroying competition, destroying market forces, destroying freedom.

  13. Rizzo  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 9:42 am

    Do you believe that "All Lives Matter"?
    I can't imagine you CARE ONE BIT about the lives sacrificed in the name of PRO-ABORTION, PRO-BABY KILLING "women's rights".
    Then, if a baby actually slips by, and is born… Treat that baby, like a baby from cradle to grave. Provide for that baby, as if it will never mature… as if it will never have the capability of providing for itself. If that baby is born in the US, it has the greatest chance for success, anywhere in the world.
    And, if not, the US will pay for that baby to live a life better than 2/3rds. of the world… even if it means the US will go broke, and our economy will collapse.
    And not even ONE "THANK YOU" from you leeches on the left.

    • Ty  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 3:49 pm

      I showed you the article, the left are not the leeches, our centers of power and influence are thriving. You are right to be mad about that, but you might want to do what you tell everyone ELSE to do all the time and look in the mirror.

      And no, you do not get to come at me and LIE that you believe all life matters, we've established above that you are quite HAPPY to let someone die if they cannot pay for care, if they need a cancer drug that an emergency room will not cover for long term treatment, let, them, die is your default answer, if not in direct statements, in ACTUAL policy of not wanting to socialize the costs.

      And here is a key difference in that life and the life of a 3 week old fetus. the person with cancer is a HUMAN BEING !!!! The 3 week old fetus? Human life. Human, alive, and NOT a human being. The latter has more intrinsic worth because that person can think and feel and has a level of self awareness a fetus does not. And THAT is who you want to let DIE if they cannot pay, even though we as a society have the power and wealth and means to save them, NOT on your watch.

      gtfo with this trash about being pro life, you're not. You're like most conservatives at their core. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

      • Nani Tavares  •  Jun 30, 2017 at 5:27 pm

        Ty, um, according to the OECD, Israel's health care system is in shambles. But let's put all of that aside. Almost every program the government gets their hands on is in a mess, yet Liberals want to entrust a very important part of our lives to it? That is beyond insane.

        And who pray tell is going to pay for it? THAT is the bottom line. Liberals are supposed to be for fairness. How fair is it to take from the hard earning working class to pay for someone else whose luck, choices are none of their doing? You talk about representatives and tell us to deal with it. I agree; who won Congress? So take your own advice and DEAL WITH IT. The voters put in people who understand that the working class is tired of Liberals trying to make us the bad, selfish person because we want to have more of the money WE earn, to spend on OUR families. I get it, you are so upset because the guilt card is no longer working; that we will no longer quietly accept responsibility for others. But as you keep on saying: DEAL WITH IT.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 1:12 am

        The ONLY thing that we have established is that government is not the answer, as it pertains to life. Conservatives care for the poor, the rich, the sick and all. That's why we want a FREE SOCIETY which allows people to be as successful as they want to be, and not punish success. NOBODY is dying from not getting life-saving meds, but Dems are ACTIVELY KILLING BABIES.

  14. Rizzo  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 10:06 am

    If there were any lingering questions on government-run Utopian Dreams, one need look no further than the leftist-controlled Illinois.
    ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE!
    How much compassionate are leftists, when they bleed the golden-goose to death, they create unsustainable dependency, and NOBODY RECEIVES HEALTHCARE, AND NOBODY GETS A QUALITY EDUCATION, AND NOBODY CAN EARN A GOOD LIVING.
    You people would probably be happy… Everyone will be EQUALLY MISERABLE.
    YOU PEOPLE ARE LOCUSTS!

    • Ty  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 4:35 pm

      I think I have a new nickname for you, I'm going to start calling you Hannity. I see him as the apotheosis of a dishonest conservative shill, whatever advances the narrative of republican interests, or the interests of the right, is promoted, truth be damned. Lies of omission abound, but who cares if the missing data points another way, that does not fit the narrative so we can't focus on that! That might undermine and disprove our point!

      And so it is with Rizz.. I mean Hannity here. Look at Illinois, ignore Washington State, ignore California

      https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-10/california-leads-u-s-economy-away-from-trump

      Ignore any data point that does not point your way, or accept it but ignore positive angles, I already know the retort, but California DEBT !!!!!!! THAT DEBT !!!!!!!! About to fall into the sea !!!!

      OK kids. Have fun in Mississippi and Alabama. Less debt, and everything else.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 9:03 am

        Ty
        I think I have a new nickname for you, I'm going to start calling you Chris Matthews, or Rachel MadCow, or Scott Pelley, or Lester Holt, or Anderson Cooper, or Andrea Mitchel, or Joe Scarborough, or Mika, or George Stephanopolis, Lawrence Odonnel, or Wolf Blitzer, or etc., etc., etc. I see them as the apotheosis of dishonest leftist shills, whatever advances the narrative of European-Socialist interests, or the interests of the left, is promoted, truth be damned. Lies of omission abound, but who cares if the missing data points another way, that does not fit the narrative so we can't focus on that! That might undermine and disprove our point!

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 9:27 am

        Now… lets get back to a fair, apples to apples, side-by-side comparison.

        Illinois vs. Wisconsin
        Both were leftist, bastions of freedom-killing, debt-creating, NIGHTMARES.
        Approximately, 7 years ago, Wisconsin chose a different path.
        Instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over, but with just larger price-tags, Wisconsin elected Scott Walker… they chose to elect an adult. They elected an adult who was willing to make tough, adult decisions. Of course, the leftists, as they ALWAYS DO, bused-in their rent-a-mob and protested like CHILDREN. They promised ONLY doom and gloom would come from adult leadership. THEY WERE WRONG. Lets face it, THEY ARE ALWAYS WRONG. Wisconsin has returned! It has a balanced budget, economic growth, and is on a path to SUCCESS.

        NOW… back to Illinois. Illinois chose the same 'ol, same 'ol. They chose your path, Ty. There undying belief that any leftist program will work if they steal enough money from hard-working people and throw that money at any given problem… but don't forget, pocketing a few of those dollar bills along the way for themselves. It NEVER WORKS. But, the leftists get rich and the state goes down the drain. Result: Leftists-Illinois is on the verge of bankruptcy. It is on the verge of junk-bond status. It is a snapshot of where the US is headed, if the leftists are not stopped.

        Some leftists are well intentioned.
        Some are just really dumb, that just want free stuff.
        And some are just useful idiots.
        But, the leaders of the left, are a bit more diabolical. They don't oppose Conservatives because their policies will lead to destruction and death. They oppose Conservatives because their policies and beliefs WORK. Conservative policies will transform the "liberal-victims" into successful, freedom-loving, productive people. Too many people like that, and it will become OBVIOUS TO ALL that outdated leftists will have no place in America… they can't allow that to happen.

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 5:50 pm

      Rizzo, Ty is angry because his guilt card doesn't work and the working class is finally fighting back. In less than a year, all their utopia is being unraveled by Trump. It must be frustrating as all get out for them to get so close. Feel sorry for them and happy for America.

      • Ty  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 6:01 pm

        Oh Nani, I did not mean to leave you out. Your new title? Kellyanne. That is the only name worthy of the spin you put on things. Trump has plenty of working class whites supporting him, because they believed his lies (often directly in opposition to conservative dogma that you buy into), but that will not materially improve their lives. Their economies are not going to recover as well as liberal metro areas, they will continue to wither and wane, and Trump is going along trying to remove healthcare assistance for many of them that are having a hard time. But he has people like you Kellyanne, spinning tales and redirecting to culture war issues to distract his voting base from policies that will actually materially effect their lives.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 1, 2017 at 7:18 pm

        Nani…
        What's great is, Ty hasn't read the writing on the wall… that is, the OLD, PLAYED-OUT, leftist clap-trap don't work anymore. You can't just make wild, baseless claims that Conservatives "don't care", or "they want the poor to die", or "they hate black people".
        So just let him banter on, while we convince people with logic, reason and FACTS. We are witnessing the demise of the Democrat party and the RADICAL, LEFTISTS THEY REPRESENT.
        I'd be lying, if I said, I wasn't enjoying, witnessing it FIRST-HAND.
        THANKS TY!!!

      • kevin meechan  •  Jul 7, 2017 at 4:09 pm

        great example Rizzo

  15. Pat Allen  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:16 pm

    This all comes down to values. Liberals highest values are equality and fairness. Conservative values are freedom and fiscal responsibility. Liberals will gladly give up freedom for equality and to make sure that nobody gets more than anybody else. Thank god we have a constitution that at least at times protects our individual rights – including the right not to buy health insurance, and the right to pay for quality care if we so choose. Liberals would sell you freedom down the road in a heartbeat, it is at the core of their being. When you consider these issues always remember, a liberal will take your freedom and money to make things more "fair" and "equal." A conservative will accept some inequality and unfairness to preserve liberty. As for me – give me liberty or give me…..

    • Nani Tavares  •  Jul 2, 2017 at 6:49 pm

      Absolutely spot on Pat! Socialism hasn't worked anywhere and part of the reason for that is fundamentally, their "fairness" and "equality " isn't fair or equal. When you take from a group of people and GIVE it to another, how fair or equal is that for the group being taken from? How can one speak of racial equality and judge a person on the color of their skin? How fair is it to excuse a person's bad behavior or to give preferential treatment because of the color of their skin? The real problem that Liberals have is that their dogma of fairness and equality has worked too well; the rest of us want fairness and equality for US. It isn't fair for us to bear the burden and responsibility of the poor, the minority, the unfortunate. They can ask but they can no longer demand.

      • Rizzo  •  Jul 3, 2017 at 10:36 am

        Conservatives believe in fairness and equality as it pertains to application of the law and opportunity.
        Liberals believe in equality of outcomes.
        They are pathetic children.

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